Zen5 Gaming: Where’s my 5%? Windows vs “Patch” Windows vs Linux & The “Lost” Performance Ramble
So you noticed some discrepancies in some of the Ryzen 9000s reviews eh? We noticed too. Here is Wendell’s take.
0:00 Intro
0:25 Things You Need to Understand
1:24 What is Virtualization Based Security
2:09 Cyberpunk 2077 7700x
2:19 Showcasing the Problem with Cyberpunk 2077 and VBS
5:55 Educated Guess
6:13 The Other Thing to Understand with VBS
7:29 Shadow of the Tomb Raider is Different
8:38 Admin Mode Thing
10:29 How Do You Know You’re Running VBS?
11:23 Wendell Ramble Time
13:47 Let’s Talk About Linux
14:42 DO NOT TAKE THIS OUT OF CONTEXT!!!
15:13 Far Cry 6 and Honesty
16:34 Generally on Linux
17:59 Core Parking and Game Mode
19:17 F1 2023 Windows and Linux
20:42 I’m Doing Benchmarking Wrong
24:35 It Comes Back to Cyberpunk
26:11 The Other Problem with Benchmarking on Linux
30:47 Borderlands 3
31:36 The Importance of This Video
31:57 Bios Settings
36:59 Windows May be the Issue?
37:42 Windows May NOT be the Issue?
38:31 How’s the Non-Gaming Stuff?
38:58 Conclusion
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Hey look AMD made a blog post! https://community.amd.com/t5/gaming/ryzen-9000-series-community-update-gaming-performance/ba-p/704054
Huge thanks to our supporters on Floatplane, Patreon and here for helping make this video possible. Y'all the best <3
My feeling about this is Zen 5 improvements are for servers, if it benefits desktop users, that's a plus. I bet my beer they tested mostly server workloads, and that is mostly Linux.
EDIT: I also play on Linux, Steam Proton changed everything, it's nice to hear an honest (and mature) opinion on it, it's basically what I experience.
Linux has been my primary os since 2005, but i keep Windows in dual boot for games only. It is not only about the Linux game status on Steam database but the whole ecosystem. It depends on the game, but when you are gaming, there are other peripheral software you also run. I like (some call it bloatware) my Logitech software to program my mouse. Currently, i also run ReWasd to program advanced keybindings to my Xbox Elite gamepad, Gameglass to use my tablet to add immersion for my space sims, VoiceAttack to send vocal commands to games, and so on.
One last thing, there's a way to actually turn Hyper-V off without removing the Hyper-V role. You need to make a small change to your BCD options and add a startup flag that basically turns off that Hyper-V subsystem, but keeps your configuration. This removes the performance penalty but doesn't remove all the stuff that's installed with Hyper-V (i.e. Hyper-V manager)
I don't know if this helps with your testing but it might save some time compared to having to removing and re-activating that WIndows feature/role again and again.
Hey, throwing something out here. So if Zen5 is supposed to do virtualization better than Zen4.
Windows 11 has VBS on by default, which utilizes Hyper-V more or less and is beneficial to user security overall.
BUT, here's another thing to consider, DENUVO – a lot of games these days has this disease attached to them.
What software doesn't use this or have it attached to them? Right, productivity software and Linux.
I'm only vaguely familiar with Hyper-V and whatnot. I understand it's a Level 1/baremetal hypervisor. Enabling it in a Windows 11 install places the OS on "top" of Hyper-V. I also understand that Denuvo is the equivalent of a level 2 hypervisor because the game is run in a "virtualized" environment to make the game impossible to pirate.
Could it be that we're getting these weird performance inconsistencies because certain games that have Denuvo are essentially running a virtualized environment inside an already virtualized OS (Hyper-V). I know VBS attaches Windows more closely to the hardware but maybe there is some sort of weird interaction going on with Denuvo and VBS or Hyper-V that's causing these performance issues?
Maybe the inconsistencies we're getting is that some games are running different versions of Denuvo and some may play nicer with Zen5 than others? I know I'm just basically spitballing here but it feels like there's a missing link somewhere and I appreciate the fact that you too are trying to figure out just where AMD is going on (other than everywhere with this crappy marketing team).
With automatic overclocking, how much does silicon lottery affect an average Windows gaming system with average hardware?
Linux stuff has gotten literally so good, you'd be hard pressed to say Linux can't do XYZ anymore.
Please look how it behaves with Windows running in Proxmox, exposing virtualization or not. i.e. use Linux on host which handles cores/etc. and Windows with less stuff exposed to it.
Great to see testing and experimentation. This only mentions affecting gaming fps. Is productivity affected at all? Things like handbrake transcoding or a davinci resolve workload?
This tribalism talk reminds me of something I saw about pro wrestling yesterday, specifically WWE vs. AEW. The "fans" of WWE want AEW to die a horrible death. AEW's "fans" want the same of WWE. The wrestlers themselves, the people working for WWE and AEW (and other companies, like TNA, NJPW, CCML, AAA, Noah, etc.) want BOTH to thrive, and they love their friends and (often literal) family on the other side of the tribal lines. Whiny fanboys make us all weaker.
This VBS effect on zen5 is really interesting. I wonder if this is reproducible with non-gaming workloads too.
A good handheld experience on windows is very possible… but it often means doing things like completely covering up windows with a front end. Launchbox can outright replace explorer.exe so you can instantly boot into the front end. Auto launching steam big picture mode is also a good option that basically makes windows identical to the steam deck in terms of interface. Unfortunately long gone are the days of windows 8-8.1 touch friendly design… it came in at the wrong time.
Like many people, I've watched Intel do all kinds of "fair trade act" violations. I would't put it past them to nudge a low level MS employ to add a small "widget" to hinder AMD.
MAkes sure to sign up to Vote. free and open media depends on it.
windows sucks but i hate linux & the linux file system
10:22 WOW!
i dont run any VM stuff
13:15 Hugely agree on this. I'd like to see investigation and cooperation and a spirit of exploration…instead, it seems like some just want to argue and dismiss each others' findings, as though there's some race to an imagined "top" of some heap.
13 minute mark, basically "knock it off, fanboys! …or I'm turning the car back around!"
ok at this point I need a DESKTOP focused hypervisor(the real dual boot) that use the same cpu same ram same gpu and made for quickly "alt tab" between the windows and linux OS with 0 overhead instantly (sub 1 second) while put the other os, for example linux in fairy suspended mode where it does stop using the gpu and cpu but the suspended os will never know that it got rug pulled while the other os, for example windows gets resumed from suspended mode and gets the cpu and gpu for real. Why? because sure as hell i have no money for 2 4090 and 2 7800x3d to build 2 separate system and buy a good KVM but i have money for 64/128gb ram. Well one can dream.
Although Iβve been a dedicated Linux user for years, I havenβt made the switch to gaming on Linux yet. However, this video has given me plenty of reasons to seriously consider it. π€
CachyOS and enjoy the power. Even nvidia undervolting works well now.
Wise words.
I switched AMD and Intel almost regularly but also Nvidia/AMD more than once. All depending on value.
Oh, when Ryzen 9000 came out to not be good uplift over 7000, people saw it like disaster.
But with those prices of Ryzen 7000, its alot of choises among cpus.
Sb with 7800X3D comments "I am waiting 9000 X3D parts." But single gen difference wasn't usually good for upgrade.
I usually try get 2x faster hardware to see really big improvement.
(I kept that for cpus, gpus, even storage made sense get only if 2x more capacity was for the price of old one and if really needed)
When it comes for gaming, there is such golden free upgrade called turn down settings little bit (just tweak bitπ ).
Simple: 9000 series is Trash. AMD miss the chance to kill Intel….. Shame
is it too paranoid to assume that Microsoft is holding back the PC landscape? (i think it is)
the ARM laptops launch was a disaster for the devs, now zen 5 is being sometimes crippled by the thread scheduling, what's next?
People are obsessed with this topic, I think it's because it's the first time normies have been told Linux is better for gaming
You must see the power needed to have the same result. Your 5% are there.
I think the constant drumbeat of negativity is coming from inside the house. Tribalism is coming from outside, but reviewers seem to be overhyped and have absurd expectations of everything these days. "AMD Ryzen 7 9700X Review – Zen 5 Sucks For Gaming!" It's nonsense. Overall Zen 5 is not much, if any, better than the previous generation but it's no worse. The good news is Zen 5 can be improved whereas Zen 4 has seen all the significant improvement it will. Intel has a severe problem, but many gaming hardware reviewers fail to mention it's not all encompassing. The Core i3-13100 isn't likely to spontaneously emit smoke and die. Most Intel processors were unaffected. Bad news attracts attention, I guess. Solid information is helpful inflammatory clickbait is not. You on the other hand are doing great.
the funny thing is all this debate is about 5% performacne uplift (While being in CPU-bound sceanrios, so high-end GPU, most likely no less than 4090)
I don't watch HUB and Steve at GN is a mumble mouth speed talker with a Jr high level of snark. Can't stand him. His tests seem fine but can't listen to the guy.
Nah, IPC and performance are not the same thing. Zen5 can execute 40-50% more instructions per cycle in some cases, but this does not translate into performance, as there are several other bottlenecks in the pipeline.
Microsoft isn't using its billions to give Windows the attention it deserves.
Throwing shade new comer when the incumbent can't even game properly ,just perfect and classy.
Won't even give a fair shake to arm
Do you have a guide for normies like me on how to get started with Linux? Most of the advice I see is "just download" a few versions and try it. But like, I'm not about to just download an OS from a random file sharing site. What are the reputable websites to start downloading Linux OS.. stuff
Sooooo, what you're is "STEVE WAS WRONG!" Got it π off to reddit I go π€ͺ
Excellent information / approach. You are amazing when you don't try any of the forced humour of your other (older?) videos. Too bad, Windows is such a sh*t show. The only trust I have in Microsoft is that they'll mess something up again on regular basis.
And I thought optimizing tertiary RAM timings was kind of extreme… like how reducing this one very large timing number yielded up to 6% improvement in some games like Factorio (while using Samsung B die on Zen 3 non-X3D).
Oh well, I guess there is even more opaque optimization to look for when/if I upgrade to Zen 5 or something…
ZEN 5 seems to be an architecture more for server/AI etc. Not desktop productivity (normal) and gaming.
As it stands I am really hoping Arrow Lake is not suffering from the stability issues/oxidization problems that 13K/14K CPUs from Intel. I am hoping it will be free from that and have a nice decent performance uplift in gaming. I also seen some leaks and rumors (so who knows if true) that Arrow lake might be almost 100watt less in power consumption in performance profiles.
Intel kind of desperately need a form of win now. I don't want to sit in a future with only one CPU player. If that happens I am rooting for ARM coming in saving the day.
VBS provides significant improvements in security from things such as ransomware and malicious code's access to Windows credential stores. It's scary to think someone would turn off VBS for gaming FPS.
WE lived in a times where CPU's were optimised for OS, finally we're moving to have CPU's just being good and good OS benefiting the most.
47 times windows install? take a chocolate.
So for all the geeks watching Level 1, just dual boot or triple boot. Have 1 windows install just for steam and nvidia driver, no browsers no apps, admin account, vbs disabled.
That's hyper optimized gaming.
8:41 – Good explanation. I have VBS and Core Isolation disabled. In the past I used custom ISO's with Administrator accounts but this got me scratching my head as it never had a performance difference. Tested it again recently and no difference again. Being those security things makes sense.
Hey, thanks for showing this GameMode+Lutris thing, even though you didn't mention the second one by name. I installed it and it works a lot better for Cyberpunk 2077 than adding it as an external game into Steam and running it through Proton that way.